Are these sentences all grammatically correct?

"I want to know what is right"
"I want to know what the right thing is."
"I want to know what is that"
"I want to know what that is"

Question

Are these sentences all grammatically correct?

"I want to know what is right"
"I want to know what the right thing is."
"I want to know what is that"
"I want to know what that is"

Bearsca · Answer

1, 3 and 4 lack punctuation. #3 is also otherwise grammatically unsound. #2 is correct.

Anivia · Answer

1, 2, and 4 are correct.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia There's no period in 1 or 4.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca
I know, but the question was specifically about grammar, and punctuation is considered separate from grammar.

I also don’t think the poster is confused about whether a sentence should end in a period or not, which is why I didn’t nitpick it. Sometimes I ask about phrases (with no period) on this app too, it’s totally okay👍

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia Punctuation is part of grammar. And even if it wasn't, that's irrelevant. It's part of the language, so there's no reason it couldn't be mentioned.

I was thinking they perhaps copied and pasted the one with a period and wrote the others. That could mean they on some level weren't conscious of the punctuation. They could even have thought it's legal to end sentences without punctuation.

It's always best practice to get the basics right when it comes to language, and especially when you're a learner. Not bothering or learning from those who aren't bothering can cause you to lose / not gain sight of what the language is like when written properly. And it's also often much easier to correct people's questions on here on HiNative when they are written consistently and as correctly as possible.

Being aware of punctuation is not only important in that it confers specific meaning, sentiments, respect and comprehension. It is also important to be conscious of it so that it is employed consistently. I've for instance partaken in quizzes where the quizmaster copied in the correct answers and wrote the false options themselves, and you could tell which alternative was correct by it being punctuated correctly.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca The vast majority of languages, including the poster’s native language of Korean, use a period to end a sentence. I really don’t think there was any confusion. If a comma or semicolon was used incorrectly, I would point that out. It’s okay though, I appreciate that you’re being as careful as possible! I hope I didn’t offend you.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia There are punctuation differences between languages even in cases where both may end sentences with periods. And more importantly it's worthwhile to encourage good language use generally. Knowing how something works is pointless if you're not applying that knowledge.

And they may be making the same mistake in Korean, in which case this correction might work double duty.

I think it's silly to propose not correcting mistakes just because they're simple or common. Surely those are the most important ones, and the easiest to amend. If someone kept mixing up "red" and "blue", you'd wamt to point that out rather than assume they wouldn't run into many problems seeing as they ultimately know which is which.

Once when I was driving with my driving instructor my brain interpreted her telling me to go "right" as "left". She was of course right to do so, even though we both knew we both knew which is which. And once it was the other way around: She said the wrong one and I decided not to listen to her command because it would've put us in danger. And I was right to make that decision; we all make dumb mistakes once in a while, and there are many reasons why we might, and there is no given that it's not worth pointing it out.

Technically right is the only right in my book.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca I think we just disagree over whether it was actually a mistake to be corrected, or just normal usage of English on the internet.

It’s very common and socially acceptable for people to leave out the period in bulleted lists or the last sentence in a post or text message. It’s just the way we use language. You would not do this in an English essay or a formal email. It would also be decidedly incorrect to leave out the period in between two sentences, or use two distinct words interchangeably, like “left” and “right”.

Language learning apps like Duolingo don’t require you to type the period at the end, either. But if always putting the period at the end is helpful to you, absolutely go for it! And you are more than welcome to point it out to HiNative users if you feel it will benefit them, too.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia Perhaps the biggest problem with HiNative is that it is online and, as you say, people are largely very lax about punctuation on the internet. As such a lot of those who ask questions here are treating it the way they treat other online forums, and they're likely often people who spend a lot of time in those online spaces. In virtue of being a platform for language learning, HiNative should try to mitigate the problem by setting the appropriate standards, not primarily because it would be advantageous if people were less haphazard with their spelling online, but because what people learn on HiNative needs to be relevant in general society as well.

It's also easier to opt out of punctuation than it is to learn it overnight. And it makes answering questions on HiNative easier to answer when they are appropriately posed. Finally, even though this is a platform where there is inevitably going to be a lot of linguistic missteps, that should not be still kept to a minimum.

In short, if people become less and less thorough in answering people on HiNative, users will gradually flee, and the utility will decrease. This is not generally a place where people are free to chip in with whatever thoughts they have, but rather ought to give a comprehensive assessment of the relevant aspects of the question. And we need to be open to the idea that people who come here could be of all stripes -- whether they be proficient or not, and whether or not they are naturally inclined to punctuate and capitalize correctly, etc.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca I 100% agree with you in most cases. I correct commas and other relatively “minor” errors even when others don’t.

Leaving off the period in a list is where I draw the line. Maybe it’s a bit “lax,” but it isn’t a grammatical misconception. The poster speaks a language that uses periods in the same way as we do, and they’re also 3 stars proficient in English. I feel this is a reasonable conclusion to make. You are free to feel differently.

This absolutely is a platform where multiple people are welcome to chip in. That’s the value of it— hearing multiple people’s perspectives. Some language rules are factual, while others are more subjective or could be answered in multiple ways. We have different perspectives in our case here, for example. We’re not debating whether a period is technically required, but over its importance in this context.

You are a very formal and precise writer, and I’m not criticizing your style or preferences. There is also nothing wrong with mentioning the missing periods, in case it was a legitimate error. However, I have to disagree that people will “flee” HiNative because someone didn’t add periods to each item in a list.

Overall, I think we agree on most things— that giving detailed and precise answers will help language learners on this app. I can tell by your downvotes that you feel very passionately about including periods in all cases, but I hope you can at least see where I’m coming from, even if you don’t agree.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia I presume you're taking some sort of pragmatic stance, not realizing the road to nihilism is paved with intentions of majoritarianism.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca
I’m sorry, why are we talking about nihilism? And how am I showing intentions of majoritarianism?

All I’m saying is that real life usage matters too, if you plan to ever use the language you’re learning outside of a classroom. Knowing how native speakers actually use language in different contexts, rather than exclusively studying rigid grammar rules from a textbook, is reasonable and practical. I personally find it fascinating how language norms evolve with technology like texting and the internet.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia We're on the exact same page in that regard. Even the lack of punctuation is interesting to me, despite that particular aspect simultaneously driving me up the wall. But descriptivism doesn't portend that everything is a complete and utter free-for-all without different things having different salience (ipso facto nihilism). Take it to its logical conclusion, and you'll find answering questions on HiNative doesn't ultimately make any sense if the sentiment expressed always boils down to "Just carry on in your blissful ignorance or wanton disregard, it's not like I care whether or not you know English.".

My reference to majoritarianism was that I have the inkling your thinking has been tainted by so much exposure to (unnecessarily) bad English. Like you're giving up because you feel you've lost the battle. In the vein of someone who abandons fighting for democracy as soon as it seems dictatorship has tightened its grip enough to suggest a well-functioning society is just that little bit too far out of reach.

Language is not a zero-sum game. We're not saving the world here. But why would we overlook mistakes just because they're common? It's not failure of the doctor who saves ten patients that there are millions more to cure. It's ten successes. Ten big or small successes, depending on the situation and your perspective. That's the sort of thing we should be aiming for. This is not a lost war where the only sensible option is to give up and go home. It's an ongoing fight for embetterment: It doesn't matter if the tide is with or against us, it's just a matter of making the best out of what we've got.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca I think one of the main points we disagree over is whether writing a list with no periods is a mistake. To me, it’s part of modern internet culture, not an error.

I’m not throwing my hands up in defeat and giving up on a battle. I just fundamentally disagree that it’s a problem that needs to be fixed.

It’s like telling someone not to say “y’all” in a text message. Or that they need to put their grocery list in a complete sentence. Or to capitalize their username. Sure, these “mistakes” would be inappropriate for a formal essay, but that doesn’t mean they’re wrong for the context they were used in. And accepting this is not giving up; it’s embracing modern language and the way it has evolved to fit different contexts.

Punctuation on the internet has taken on different meanings than it has before. For example, most people would agree that there is a significant difference between the meaning of “Ok” vs. “Ok.” in a text message, with the second message coming across as angry. I deliberately do not put a period in this situation for that reason, not because I’ve forgotten the official rules of punctuation.

I’m beginning to wonder whether our difference of opinion could come from our different cultural backgrounds.

Bearsca · Answer

"[...] whether writing a list with no periods is a mistake. To me, it’s part of modern internet culture, not an error." My view is that it is both. And, more importantly, internet language is not (considered) appropriate in most other contexts.

This is verging into "irrelevant, but I'm curious" territory, but why would cultural background be a factor? You could certainly have any number of opinions on the topic regardless of your origin. And I very much consider myself someone who seeks the most enlightened path, not simply the dogmatic one, especially not a localized such.

On a broader scale, this is of course of interest, as what one brings to the table as a participant in any interaction is relevant, even if it boils down to occasionally answering a few randos' miscellany of queries on the interwebs.

Anivia · Answer

@Bearsca The same language varies from country to country, as well as within each country. Pronunciations (“aluminum”), spellings (“enrol/enroll”), word preferences (“washroom/bathroom”), punctuation (the Oxford comma), etc. Saying “please” or “thanks a lot” in certain situations can be interpreted as polite or rude depending on your culture. None of these are wrong, just different.

I brought up the internet as one example, but this applies to other contexts too, not just informal “internet talk”. Official song lyrics are usually written without periods, for example. Would that be considered an error where you live? If so, this probably is a regional/cultural difference.

Bearsca · Answer

@Anivia I'm an extreme purist when it comes to cases like poetry and lyrics. I want consistency and logic. I can tolerate cases where punctuation is used sparingly and not necessarily as you would use it in other texts, but I dislike it when I come across lyrics written with commas but without periods, for instance, which seems to represent the most common practice. That's by the by, though, really. We're not talking about that context of punctuation use, but a more common, general one.

As I said, I don't base my stance on where I'm coming from linguistically, culturally, geographically or on my age, gender or sexuality. Of course my own language use is shaped by that to a significant degree, but my views on English and other languages in general are not in any meaningful way. My role is not to educate people to be like me, but to be the best they can be.

If someone were in disagreement over whether it should be spelt "tire" or "tyre", yes, that would likely be based on the arguers' backgrounds. But we're not having a pointless, navel-gazing discussion. This is about English usage in general and contextually, but not about regional or generational differences or anything like that.

To my knowledge, no country has abolished punctuation. Certain differences exist, even within English. But we're not talking about the specific contentious topics, like e.g. the Oxford comma.

Of course a lack of punctuation is not restricted to the internet, but is also found in text messages, song titles, posters and elsewhere. That's not the point. My point is that in most of polite society using punctuation is considered the appropriate, most correct and respectful option. And the use of punctuation is texts etc. is not frowned upon nearly as much. And, as mentioned previously, it's easier to elide punctuation when suitable than to take up the mantle without active experience.

Are these sentences all grammatically correct?"I want to know what is right""I want to know what the right thing is.""I want to know what is that""I want to know what that is" 質問を翻訳

1, 3 and 4 lack punctuation. #3 is also otherwise grammatically unsound. #2 is correct.

1, 2, and 4 are correct.

@Anivia There's no period in 1 or 4.

@Anivia I presume you're taking some sort of pragmatic stance, not realizing the road to nihilism is paved with intentions of majoritarianism.

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Are these sentences all grammatically correct?

"I want to know what is right"
"I want to know what the right thing is."
"I want to know what is that"
"I want to know what that is"